Hi I'm Iapetes. I've made a few guest posts here before (like 2?) and occasionally I troll kleps' comments sections here, but usually we talk online (I have an 80 DK on his realm) or AIM. I enjoy a pretty wide selection of WoW's content- arenas, BGs, heroics, post-60 questing, and most relevantly 10 and 25 man raiding both.
Kleps has failed to think things through today, imo. First he wrote this post about the recent 10v25 announcement, and then he asked me if I wanted to write this counterpoint post. What on earth was he thinking?!
To keep it simple, I'll go point by point.
1) If the loss of loot will kill 25s, then they should die.
Kleps posits that arenas were killed in late tBC because raiders lost a big motivation to do them: weapons. Easily accessible gear at a time when raiding was not nearly as accessible. K kleps few problems with this:
A- Arenas are less popular now because blizzard screwed up big time with WotLK- they made everyone way too squishy. Arenas were still very popular in seasons 3 and 4.
B- Arenas still offer the best pvp loot, loot you can't get from battlegrounds. There's still serious incentive to do them if you're a pvper.
C- They aren't dead yet. But it's coming. Kleps' argument is based on the notion that arenas are better for not having as many people. But what about when there's no incentive at all because rated BGs will be easier to organize, easier to play, and offer the same gear to even the worst players? It's tough to enjoy arenas when you can't find anyone who will bother to do them with you.
And that brings me to my next point. How the hell does less people doing 25 mans equate a better experience for anyone who enjoys doing 25 mans? "yay my guild stopped doing 25s entirely and maybe i'm not even invited to any of the 10 mans with decent players"? Players dropping 25s in favor of 10s only ruins a whole lot of 25 man raids.
"Those who enjoy truly enjoy 25 mans will continue to do them" too bad that's contingent on 24 other people feeling the same way.
2) 25 man raiders should not be running 10 man raids just for loot.
Valor Points (the new version of the 'raiding' badge in cata) are going to have a cap on how many you can get in one week. That would have taken care of doing 10m for badges alone. Which is, in fact, how we get most of our gear. Not like ICC 10 gear is much better than ToC25 gear either.
3) 10 man raiding can be its own track, not merely a lesser form.
10 man raiding is it's own track already. It's an easier track but it stands on it's own. Why is that bad exactly? I mean, isn't the appeal of 10 mans in the first place that it's easier to get together and go do something? That it's less 'hardcore'? I'm sure there's a few people out there who wished 10 mans were equal in difficulty to 25s so they could have an extra challenge. But I'm just as sure that most players saying that aren't after bigger challenges, but better gear. For the life of me I can't understand why Blizzard is putting 25 mans at such a huge risk just for some '10m only' raider's E-PEEN.
3) Choices are hard.
Not everyone just pugs 10 man. I'm being forced to choose between 10 and 25 on my paladin, and I'll certainly choose 25 but that means I won't be playing with most of the people in my 10m group anymore. My guild will almost certainly continue 25 mans though, so at least the choice is up to me.
The fact is that players take the path of least resistance to gear. And at the same time there's a limit to what they'll do for it. IE: most guilds are content to do normal mode dungeons and not hard modes. By that same token, in arenas 3v3 and 5v5 have always rewarded more points than 2v2. But the only way Blizzard could get players out of 2s and into 3s this expansion was to restrict weapons and shoulders to the higher brackets. How they can know this, that faster gear wasn't worth a damn to pvpers, and then turn around and give the proverbial Gladiator shoulders and swords to 10 man players... I don't know. I just see a potential disaster and absolutely no good reason to risk it.
EDIT: I forgot one last thing. Kleps' attitude of "well if 25 mans die out that just means they weren't fun" is pretty retarded. But he's not the only person I've seen saying something similar. To those of you who feel this way I'd like to ask you something. Is it more fun to grind heroics for badge gear than it is to run Ulduar 25? If heroics rewarded the same gear as the latest raid and everyone stopped raiding, was that because heroics are more fun?
Raph called it
2 hours ago