One of Those People

| Thursday, August 9, 2012
My second-most hated activity in groups is silence in response to questions.  Questions like "why did you roll need on that?" or "can we do the boss over here?"  That second question could be answered with body language (pulling the boss over there), so maybe it's a bad example.  The first, well there's where it all began...

*swirling graphic with that sound that I can't quite type, like doodloo doodloo doodloo*

Despite having had it repeatedly demonstrated that every single other tank in LFD is a huge asshole or at best, total noob*, I nevertheless decided to relax a bit and queue as a DPS.  This was, of course, stupid, since dealing with random tanks is not relaxing.  It makes about as much sense as deciding to have a relaxing day at work by assigning all your responsibilities to a two-year-old child.  But I did it anyway, because I am stupid (note to haters: this is a great thing to take out of context, maybe reword to get something like "have a relaxing day at work by assigning all your responsibilities to a two-year-old child.  I did it... because I am stupid.")

*except the one DPS DK who I convinced to tank when the tank dropped and who did well enough and seemed to enjoy it, so I felt good about that.  And the warrior in that ZD run who told someone to take stairs and generally did everything correctly.  There were probably a couple other tolerable ones.  Of course then there was the DK who'd been assigned DPS (no idea how he was queued) and who kept using death grip, responding in /say with "I AM" when we asked if he wanted to tank and who, after we gave permission, then proceeded to do nothing different, including remaining in frost presence.

So there I was, in AN, which might stand for Azjol'nerub, which sounds spidery, so I bet that's it.  Things started off well, with me successfully recognizing that the bear was a druid and therefore I should do might instead of kings.  Then a one-handed mace with agility dropped, causing me to facepalm and wonder why they didn't make it an axe, seeing as agility is a shaman/rogue/hunter stat and all three classes could use an axe.  Also druids, apparently, since the druid tank then rolled need on it.  I told him that it wasn't a druid weapon.  And then asked for mark of the wild, since I'd noticed that my list of buffs wasn't sufficiently diverse (affirmative action gone mad).

This was when I got the no response.  I hate the no response.  Is it a bot?  A child ordered to never ever talk to the pedophiles lurking around every internet corner?  Are they incapable of typing and tanking?  Or are they just an asshole who doesn't think the legitimate point that one-handed maces are not good druid weapons is worth responding to?  Correct responses would have included :"oops, misread that", "transmog", and "sorry, thought I was on my shaman".  Note that the mace lacked any stamina and was lower DPS than his current green 2h.

My first-most hated activity in groups is unnecessary hostility in response to reasonable questions and comments. I interrupt this post to link Big Bear Butt and the remarkable example which he presented to us, seemingly while I was writing this post.

For example, a warrior the other day was at about 12% of damage done (in a 5-man, with other DPS in the 20s) and was disappointed about it, but got mad when we pointed out that intellect is useless to warriors and that his talents weren't chosen well (we said it nicely).  He insisted he needed better gear, which made no sense, since he had at least some quest items (agility ring?  strength? intellect!), meaning that he wasn't undergeared, he was stupidgeared.

Eventually a response comes, something like "no one cares" from the tank and "shut the fuck up" from the healer (in the same guild).  That wasn't on the list of correct responses, which while not an exhaustive list, does cover the general concepts of mistakes and transmog.  I pointed out that it was worse, yielding "duel wield" as a response.  That's when I suggested that maybe he'd mixed himself up with an enhancement shaman, prompting more profanity from the priest.  I should note that despite my searching, the druid appeared not to have used any profanity and may have ultimately just been someone who misread, but was overshadowed by a total asshole of a priest in his guild.

We jumped down the long long hole to the water.  The druid died.  Someone asked how.  I replied "karma".  In the meantime one of the DPS whispered me to stop arguing because they were trying to kick me.  Why?  Why is it that the person who points out that someone is a dick is the one who gets blamed, rather than the dick?  So the druid made a mistake, that's fine!  Say it was a mistake and tell your friend to chill out about the profanity.  I won't say problem solved, but maybe problem sedated.

Who am I kidding?  I really am just stupid, thinking that there is any point to pointing out dickish or stupid behavior.  For every "oops" there are a dozen replies of "shut the fuck up".  It's all just a bunch of randoms in randoms, who don't give a damn where they are or who they play with, beyond bringing along a guildy or two to provide an r-rating for the run.

I started writing this post thinking that I would single out the druid or priest as "one of those people" and complain about the jerks who sneak in to ruin the game for everyone else.  But that would be wrong.  I am "one of those people", the person who won't shut up, keep his head down, and ignore the widespread anti-social activity, ruining the facerolling reward parade for everyone else.  Sorry.


Jondare said...

You know, reading this reminded me why i stopped playing wow... So sad how LFD ruined what little decency people had left.

Anonymous said...

I don't run LFD or LFR in WoW because, well, the idiot to decent ratio is far too high. That said...

The thing that I absolutely despised in groups was someone make a mistake, act the idiot, or need an item they clearly didn't need and that starting the chat war. Say something once, I probably did as well, then either drop it or move to the vote kick. Trying to badger someone into answering your critical comment is self absorbed.

In fairness, I haven't seen the chat log. Reading your presentation makes it sound like you didn't get an answer and dammit he owes you one. Nobody ignores me!

How's that for hyperbola?

WoW, as a social game outside of a structured guild, is dead. Blizzard has no intention of granting players the tools to police the community, promulgate uniform rules, or enforce any rules they do have. Unless a potential lawsuit is involved. It is not economically viable, I guess, so it isn't going to happen.

Azuriel said...

Blizzard has no intention of granting players the tools to police the community, promulgate uniform rules, or enforce any rules they do have.

What rule did the druid break?

By the way, this is probably the mace that dropped. Key fact: Bind on Equip. I would suggest that changes the on-going narrative a bit.

Also, it is comically large for a 1H mace, e.g. nice Transmog target, but you sort of addressed that already.

Anonymous said...

What rule did the druid break?

How about the social convention not to need on things you can't use or aren't upgrades without asking first? Want it for transmog or because one of your alts could use it? Ask before you need. Not all rules are about murder, there are legitimate issues with fair and honest play that should be enforced.

The need/greed system fails the community by not providing a valid framework. There is no penalty to the Rogue, to pick a personal memory from WotLK, who decides to need on the INT neck because the "Mage doesn't deserve it". That would be the Mage who is doing about as well as someone in dungeon blues could be expected against my raid-geared DK and the raid-geared Rogue.

And the comment was more general rather than specific to a weird need roll. Both badgering someone to explain themselves and starting a cursing match with the person demanding explanations should be reportable, as harassment. The chance of Blizzard doing anything of the sort is basically nil.

Oh, the 'report for language' option? I used it on the same person three days in a row before dropping the Trade channel. I have no faith that Blizzard will act on anything that does not threaten a lawsuit.

Klepsacovic said...

@Anonymous: I may be applying too much of real life to WoW, as in, if I asked you a question, directly to you, and there was no one shouting over or anything like that, it would be rude to not respond in any way.

@Azuriel: The ninjaing broke no Blizzard rules, but the stream of profanity which followed did.

As for the BoE aspect, in what way do you think that changes the narrative?

Azuriel said...

"Social convention?" Which convention(s)?

I absolutely agree that the need/greed system fails the community. Is "Need" defined as "Need to equip this right now"? Because, let me tell you, there were dozens of times I wish I had pressed Need instead of Greed when the item that I could have used for some greater purpose ended up being someone's 17g vendor or shard. Hell, I would pay the winner of a secondary Greed roll to allow me to possibly maybe use that wacky sword or off-off-spec helmet.

But let us be honest here, would it have really mattered that I typed "Need for 'mog/off-spec?" Unless you are operating on radically different rulesets than everyone else, e.g. you would only Greed on Transmogs despite competing with everyone else's D/E roll, pressing Need is the same implicit thing. IMO, if you care about the fate of the item, you press Need. If you don't, you don't.

So who is at fault? Who would not be following "social conventions?" You? Me? Everyone?

I won't be a chump if I see someone Needing on every damn item in the place - counter-Needing solves that with little fuss - but for incidents like these wherein it doesn't even appear Klep wanted the item? I dunno, I might just have voted to kick too. Two strangers forcing me to endure a socially awkward e-fight when I'm just trying to level up in LFD is not my idea of fun.

Azuriel said...


Yes, I would have submitted a ticket for profanity as well.

Re: BoE, it changes the narrative because it becomes more likely (or at least possible) that the druid could have misinterpreted your class advice as passive-aggressive trolling. Or an attempt to shame him/her, which amounts to the same thing in the abstract.

Plus, if I knew it was worth 500g+ on many realms (it being a good Transmog target, after all), I would have probably hit Need without much preamble as well. "Needing for gold" simply sounds crass, and isn't much better IMO than "Needing for vanity purposes."

My social conventions draw a line between the above and "Needing for shard/vendor" or if it is a huge, rare upgrade for someone, of course. What constitutes huge and rare and upgrade is obviously up to me.

Klepsacovic said...

As I see it, anything above vendor or trade is need, though taking into account people who will equip the item for an upgrade to their roles. So sure, I'd go along with "need for transmog" as long as they didn't take it from a "need to equip".

Again, why is it the person who points out the problem who gets the criticism? This is the problem, when we attack the messenger rather than the root of the problem: people who abuse the rules. Quantitatively it's not a big deal, averaging to only 12 or so gold per player based on the wowhead buyout estimate. Qualitatively, it's someone saying "fuck you, I don't care if I've wronged you or broken any rules". Or, literally, "fuck you" as in the case of the priest.

Furthermore, saying "that's not a druid weapon" hardly counts as a "socially awkward conversation" unless you have a serious problem with social situations. It is the refusal to respond in a civilized manner with a followup of "fuck you" and so on that makes it a socially awkward situation.

At least as I've experienced it, rolling need on a BoE soulbinds it. By that I mean that I am rolled need on BoE items and have gotten the notification "rolling need on this item will soulbind it to you" and afterward, the item has been soulbound. Blizzard has actually acted to eliminate the "need to AH" problem. I do not know if this feature is always enabled or if it has any exceptions, but I don't think so.

Hyperian said...

I go into every LFD assuming im about to join a team of insecure, rage filled 14 year olds, so im never surpirsed when the druid tank is wearing healer gear, or the dps is breking the CC'd targets and all they can do is drop the F bomb after they dont get some green. This way the spiral to the group destruction is never a shocker

Anonymous said...

Azuriel, things have obviously changed since I ran too much LFD back in WotLK. It was always assumed that you would ask if anyone minded a need role on an item you wanted for an off-spec or an alt. No transmog at the time so that wasn't a consideration. That this is so foreign an idea only reinforces my general opinion that WoW has no hope of a functional social environment.

Klep, yes me ignoring you in real life is rude and I do it everyday to telemarketers and people on the street looking for me to support their important cause. Different case? Absolutely, but so is a video game. You asked, as I would have, about the need role. If there is no response you need to write it off, initiate a vote kick, or decide that you are going to get a response and start harassing the person. Once you select door #3 you are the problem.

Klepsacovic said...

Door three is asking one more time, in case chat scrolled or they somehow missed it. Door four is harassment. I took door three.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps, but the tone of your initial post (which never said that you asked only twice) implies that you kept this up until you wore the tank down before taking on a running battle because you didn't like the answer. Note that I'm ignoring the profanity-spewing part of the equation and only considering you and the tank.

Klepsacovic said...

Here's the chronology, as best I can remember it.

Druid rolls need, I say that it is not a druid weapon. I then ask for mark [of the wild]. A short time passes, somewhere between a few seconds and a minute, and I ask again.

At this point the priest starts the fuck off leave if you don't like it. I don't recall my response.

The druid said something about dual wield. This was when I asked if he'd confused himself with an enhancement shaman. I don't think the druid said much after this; he'd not been very talkative, which I should have noted earlier in the post, that it was the priest being offensive, not the druid.

There was another round of profanity and the priest saying something about it being a mistake. I finished with "if it was a mistake then call it a mistake and ease off the profanity."

stubborn said...

Dear Klep,
I realize I'm quite late to this, but I frequently am. You'll have to forgive me.

Anyway, I am one of those people, too. I recently and pointlessly wrote on the stupidity of the VtK system, and most of the responses I got was that I was an asshole for having any kind of standards at all by which I expect strangers to behave. The apathy of the community is beginning - no - has long since begun to wear thin for me.

At any rate, kudos to you, and I hope you keep trying to get yourself kicked, as I was when I refused to continue tanking for two mages who were needing on everything and gave me a "shut the fuck up" response when I pointed it out.

I for one sure as hell am not about to back down.

Stubborn (an nom-de-appropo)

Klepsacovic said...

I repay your lateness in kind with a late reply. :P

Makes me wish for the old days when the tank was usually lead and could just kick those offensive DPS.

Coreus said...

Challenge Dungeons with their lack of automatic queueing present a return to the old system where groups are started, and therefore run, by the player who had the impetus to do so.

I'm confident this content will be to LFD as regular raiding is to LFR currently.

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