tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post8026306137737022025..comments2024-01-04T06:27:01.723-06:00Comments on Troll Racials are Overpowered: Subjective and irrational are not the same thingKlepsacovichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-38057329974191059022010-12-10T20:04:39.468-06:002010-12-10T20:04:39.468-06:00"I am a supporter of socialist economics"..."I am a supporter of socialist economics"<br />It's beside the point, but to clarify, I don't think socialism is the ideal system for all industries.Klepsacovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-84313798588827555062010-12-10T19:57:03.544-06:002010-12-10T19:57:03.544-06:00I don't have the quote, but usually if someone...I don't have the quote, but usually if someone is arguing about efficiency they will either pick the most efficient method or explain why they have chosen a less efficient method. He did neither.<br /><br />Since you seem to enjoy analogies, let's go with this one: though I doubt you can find an exact quote of "I am a supporter of socialist economics", you could reasonably infer such a stance based on my writing. Similarly, when a person excludes alts from a guild for a reason which does not fit the problem, and then writes more about why people are dumb to make alts, it is a reasonable inference that he has something against alts, something beyond the usual mentality of "pick a main". "Alts are bad" was an overstatement, but not by a whole lot.<br /><br />Could you elaborate on what you mean by detailed? Do you mean the minutae, the tiny bits that we might miss in a screenshot? If so, there are things we will miss on a main compared to an alt; the relative power and aggressiveness of mobs being one of them.<br /><br />I don't see the point of your analogy, unless you're trying to suggest that angels are assholes, which doesn't make much sense at all in the context.Klepsacovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-10646612694826804632010-12-10T18:34:27.147-06:002010-12-10T18:34:27.147-06:00"Right back at ya.
If the only goal is to see..."Right back at ya.<br />If the only goal is to see content, why even use the main? "<br /><br />Right back at ya again. As I've already stated, I agree, the most efficient way to see content is wowhead and youtube. Do you have a quote from Gevlon where he advocates not using wowhead and youtube? If you don't, then you are offtopic and arguing against a straw man here.<br /><br />"This is purely rational goal-seeking behavior and yet Gevlon has suggested neither of these, instead opting to stand by his "alts are bad" ideology. "<br /><br />Do you have a quote from Gevlon saying that "alts are bad"? If you don't, then you again are engaging in a straw man fallacy.<br /><br />"At the risk of repetition, but to make sure my point is clear: if the goal is to merely see content, then Gevlon's suggestion of using a main rather than an alt is merely taking a slightly more efficient method, not the most efficient, meaning that he must be doing some form of rationalizing himself, which he, as he often does, refuses to acknowledge."<br /><br />This analogy doesn't hold. If you want to see the changes they made to the game efficiently, check the web. If you want to see them in a more detailed fashion, use your main ingame. You are suggesting that using an alt is even slower than a main, but is even MORE detailed. This is false, using an alt is not more detailed. It is indeed a DIFFERENT experience, but that isn't sufficient to construct this doubly ordered continuum that you though you'd constructed.<br /><br />Here's an analogy, containing both murder and angels. We have two people, one prefers efficient travel, and drives along the freeway to his destination. The other rides his bicycle along a coastal road, for a scenic route. An angel from heaven flies down and says: "stupid scenic bicycle rider! If you REALLY wanted to experience that scenic content in the way the creator intended it to be taken in, you'd kill yourself so that you could be reborn and see it afresh with awed baby eyes!" The angel then redirects a logging truck into the bicyclist with a careless flick of his wrist, as our hapless cyclist loses consciousness the last thought in his mind is this : "Goblin priest or Worgen druid?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-21805107667390304282010-12-10T09:12:09.689-06:002010-12-10T09:12:09.689-06:00"I can't believe you wrote that many word..."I can't believe you wrote that many words on this subject, Klep, and still missed the point."<br />Right back at ya.<br />If the only goal is to see content, why even use the main? Wowhead has everything. Clearly there is some subjective, irrational, emotional, social, rationalizing process going to for Gevlon to suggest that going on a main is a significantly better idea, when compared to wowhead, main or alt are both slow.<br /><br />And yes, people make alts for multiple reasons. People do most things for multiple reasons, but often communicate only the most recent reason. For example, I made a human rogue recently. I wanted to see the new human content at the proper level, I wanted a jewelcrafter, I wanted to play a rogue. If asked I'd probably just say it was to see the new content, but clearly it is for multiple reasons; none of those make it irrational rationalizing.<br /><br />At the risk of repetition, but to make sure my point is clear: if the goal is to merely see content, then Gevlon's suggestion of using a main rather than an alt is merely taking a slightly more efficient method, not the most efficient, meaning that he must be doing some form of rationalizing himself, which he, as he often does, refuses to acknowledge.<br /><br />If instead the goal is to gain some type of experience, which might be miscommunicated with the more simplistic "seeing content", then an alt gives a different experience than a main.<br /><br />If the goal is to see, don't log in; go to wowhead and youtube. If the goal is to experience, make whatever character you think will give the best experience. This is purely rational goal-seeking behavior and yet Gevlon has suggested neither of these, instead opting to stand by his "alts are bad" ideology.Klepsacovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-3088006494025700852010-12-10T00:02:29.553-06:002010-12-10T00:02:29.553-06:00I can't believe you wrote that many words on t...I can't believe you wrote that many words on this subject, Klep, and still missed the point. This is incredibly simple, Gevlon stated that you don't need alts to see content, you can see it on your main faster. True. You stated that the experience was different on an alt, than on a main. True. Is this a contradiction? No. People don't make alts to see content, they make alts to make alts, to have the experience of making alts, etc. Gev is calling them on their "content" BS reason because he knows this, and you are missing the point.<br /><br />This is why people say they make alts to see content: "Ok, let's make an alt of this class, I want to play it. Oh, I don't have a dwarf yet, I could see that starting zone. Content! And I could do these zones I missed before. Content! I'm making an alt to see content!" Rationalization is not rational, it is emotional. They make the alt to play with a friend, or just to re-experience low levels with a new class, or to get new tradeskills, not to see this magical content that's really not significantly different than the other zone. Gevlon's example blowing a hole in the content rationalization is a provocative and innovative way to think about something that we already knew all about, if we were honest with ourselves. I think perhaps it was written in a provocative enough style so that everyone forgot that his main point was actually obvious and we already knew it without even needing to think about it.<br /><br />To be honest, your point about reading quest descriptions is something I do. I'd much rather read the quest descriptions, then try to find some challenge like a hardmode at maxlvl or undermanning low lvl dungeons with underlvl'd characters, than experience the content the way blizz intended.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-58381772139215839502010-12-09T14:49:21.255-06:002010-12-09T14:49:21.255-06:00Sorry about the delayed publishing, Anonymous; som...Sorry about the delayed publishing, Anonymous; somehow it got flagged as spam and I didn't notice.<br /><br />That's totally why I went Alliance: more alien babes. Though technically speaking, both factions are tied at one each, people somehow forget that orcs came from an alien planet through a magical gateway.Klepsacovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-61028475668586955322010-12-09T07:34:22.347-06:002010-12-09T07:34:22.347-06:00Well, I did have a sensible comment to make about ...Well, I did have a sensible comment to make about the actual post but now I'm imagining Klep running round papier mache planets in a ripped shirt, trying to score with alien babes...<br /><br />I guess, on balance, it's better to be Kirk than Spock ;)Tamhttp://www.righteousorbs.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-8454360663589923622010-12-07T20:54:15.046-06:002010-12-07T20:54:15.046-06:00People not picking a main is not a problem of alts...People not picking a main is not a problem of alts, it's a problem of leaders failing to get people to commit.<br /><br />Spock was logical and controlled his emotions; he was not heartless and uncaring. Don't confuse those.Klepsacovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-78177192208512496562010-12-07T19:04:32.579-06:002010-12-07T19:04:32.579-06:00Degei:
The thing is, Gevlon doesn't use real ...Degei:<br /><br />The thing is, Gevlon doesn't use real logic (most of the time). He uses pseudologic, or his own opinion as logic.<br /><br /><br />In that particular case, alts in the guild has nothing to do with bringing them to raid. Indeed, many of the people i know in top guilds are the people how have the most alts. Most of them only raid on one main, and if they do raid on alts, they're often as good on the alt as another person on their main. I know people in Drow, Ensidia etc who can do just fine on alts.<br /><br /><br />Second, not putting alts in the guild doesn't mean people don't make or play them. It just means they're guildless, which accomplishes nothing. You can easily make it a rule that people must raid on mains, and have an attendance policy (although i've met very few people who think it's unreasonable to expect to them to play the same main). It's probably more of an issue in a casual guild, because it's harder to make rules and enforce them (and i'm not saying one method is inherently better, it depends on your preference). But to say that alts in guild automatically is a failure is shortsided at best, and at worst really dumb.<br /><br /><br /><br />If Gevlon said "I don't like alts in the guild, because it ruins the atmosphere". or even just "i don't like alts in the guild, just 'cause", i wouldn't have an issue. It's when he says "alts in guilds are dumb, and if you disagree with me you're dumb. My way is the only way". Not only is that stupid (and illogical), it's not verifiable. You can't "prove" something like that.(and to be fair, even when he does try to prove something using real logic/math, he cuts corners).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-86676705635533977392010-12-07T10:48:05.409-06:002010-12-07T10:48:05.409-06:00I do agree that the post you are refering to of Ge...I do agree that the post you are refering to of Gevlon's is a bit out of line. I personally am leveling alts to see the new early zones, learn other professions and to better learn my class.<br /><br />I do think your last sentence may have crossed a line however and went a bit personal. The no alts rule does serve a purpose. I have seen first hand the effect of guild members with too many 80s can have. When 4 or 5 members of a 25 raid continually switch which characters they bring for a month, progression comes to a halt. Instead of advancing, the raid falls into a pattern of going to the same point and calling it for the week since those few members are taking time to get back into the groove of the current class and such.<br /><br />Gevlon usually speaks from a logical stand point. You are speaking from an emotional stand point. Neither is wrong, it takes both a Kirk and a Spock to run a starship.DeGeihttp://worldofwarriorcraft.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-63230116538884709752010-12-07T08:18:31.202-06:002010-12-07T08:18:31.202-06:00Great post, I remember reading that post by Gevlon...Great post, I remember reading that post by Gevlon and thinking it's even more ridiculous than his typical stuff. <br /><br />As you say, there's a big difference between 'seeing' and 'experiencing' content. Doing content at the appropriate level with a corresponding race (ie playing Forsaken in Silverpine) is a much more immersive experience for me. I feel like part of the story instead of just witnesses it unfold. Subjective, but not irrational.Grezinoreply@blogger.com