tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post6443634121993801188..comments2024-01-04T06:27:01.723-06:00Comments on Troll Racials are Overpowered: Making a game for ten friends and no one else everKlepsacovichttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-92060921769475030442012-10-23T22:30:40.466-05:002012-10-23T22:30:40.466-05:00@Coreus: I'd call the "narrative/art in g...@Coreus: I'd call the "narrative/art in games" debate as one of personal choice. If people want art in games, then they should buy games with art in them and hopefully there will be games with art in them. And the same pattern for those who do not.<br /><br />For me, it's a matter of meeting expectations. If a game is advertised as X, it should deliver X, whether X is mindless entertainment, art, an experience, or something else, possibly a combination of many things. None of those are better than others, but some are what I want and some are not. Things should do what they intend to do, so if a company seeks to make a great game, then they should make a game, and not let art interfere. However, if they want to blend art and game, even if that comes at the expense of the game, then they should blend.<br /><br />@flosch: I find your comment on architecture to be fascinating. Churches were designed much as many games are: to create an experience somehow greater than the mere location depicted, something which brings in other people who then add to it even more. The profit motive cannot be ruled out, though I wonder in which it is more influential.Klepsacovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-77266901564881744212012-10-23T06:58:34.332-05:002012-10-23T06:58:34.332-05:00I didn't comment on the whole "games and ...I didn't comment on the whole "games and art" discussion, because it so much depends on the definition of art, and how it can wildly differ between people. It's surprisingly hard to define "art".<br /><br />When it comes to this post, you already give an example in your post of what the creation of a game is most similar to: architecture. You say you can easily write a horrible song or paint a hideous picture, but you can't build even a sturdy shack without experience in how to build things that don't topple over. Of course, you can build (and slightly personalize) a wooden shack you bought as a kit at a DIY store, where all you have to do is follow the instructions to correctly set the walls and roof. That's similar to using one of the game toolboxes that work by clicking together your small game. As you want to create more complicated games or houses, you need to learn more and more about programming/statics. At the end of the spectrum, you have the large games and MMOs. I compared the effort that goes into them to the palaces and cathedrals of old at some point in my blog. In a way, those large games are on scale with a cathedral when it comes to working hours invested.<br /><br />And while in theory, a church is the most exclusively owned building of them all (as "The House of the Lord"), especially the large city churches in the middle ages were much more lively and used by many people for much more than just praying. They were actually a place of scoializing, not too much different from some MMOs. Even palaces were not closed for the public in some cases: Versailles was pretty much open for every royal subject who could afford to spend a day or five there. But I digress...floschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05784402621836933199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-19604638381319454392012-10-22T16:01:43.465-05:002012-10-22T16:01:43.465-05:00I think a lot of gamers take offense to the idea o...I think a lot of gamers take offense to the idea of someone telling them video games are not art; because art = good and video games = good, therefore video games = art. It's definitely not always the case.<br /><br />To me the conversation is similar to the well-worn argument over narrative in games. Plenty of people insist it's the best thing ever, but I maintain that art is and should come secondary to the game itself. If the game is worse for the art all you have is art that forces people to play through a mediocre game to experience it. Though I guess to experience great art is probably still worth it in many cases.Coreushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10258450322199352185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-11539957673199454792012-10-22T15:20:14.727-05:002012-10-22T15:20:14.727-05:00@Rohan: My hazy memory of the book of Lord of the ...@Rohan: My hazy memory of the book of Lord of the Rings has some amount of improptu song and dance. Then the book itself was split into three in order to sell it to a wider audience. Finally it was made into a series of films and the transition from interactive and spontaneous to passive and scripted was complete.<br /><br />@Dàchéng: We may be in the first age when it is possible to have others do the entertaining. Finally enough people have the excess wealth needed to hire others to do so. It may be a natural, even smart thing to do, to have the singing done by trained singers, since I am certain that if I were frequently singing the world would be a worse place.<br /><br />Maybe there will be a trend back toward personal goods, things which we make ourselves or to whose makers we have a connection. It is happening in other areas, but I have no idea how far the trend will spread or how long it will last.<br /><br />Videogames are in a difficult position in this regard. Technical complexity encourages specialization. Since they are interactive, there may be even more to be gained from a personal attachment. I touched on this tangentially the other day with my post about modding. Maybe that's the future: games made by others which we can personalize. That would give the efficiency of specialists, a shared cultural experience, and the personal touch of oneself and friends.Klepsacovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-48346325034665890512012-10-22T12:49:32.048-05:002012-10-22T12:49:32.048-05:00It's possible to entertain your friends with a...It's possible to entertain your friends with a video-game made for 10 people. Check out <a href="http:scratch.mit.edu" rel="nofollow">Scratch</a>. What games like this lose in "gameplay", they gain in intimacy. For instance, you and your friends can decide to name characters in your game after each other, or take photos of your friends for character sprites, you can make sound effects from your own surroundings, you can change it on the fly and have fun with it, just like when you sing a song, you can change the words to refelect local interests.<br /><br />Like Rohan says, we are in an age where we are not creating so much entertainment ourselves, and preferring to let professionals entertain us instead. It doesn't have to be that way.Dàchénghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994982502333811797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5462978744516866472.post-35170336824068278112012-10-22T11:40:37.300-05:002012-10-22T11:40:37.300-05:00This is a very interesting point. If you read olde...This is a very interesting point. If you read older books, often when people gather in the evenings they would listen to some of the company play music or sing together.<br /><br />That idea, that one entertains one's friends with art, has almost totally been replaced with the idea that your friends together form an audience for "professional" art.Rohanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09090769681887119989noreply@blogger.com